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I think even the left-wingers will agree that arguing about the Iraq war in the Presidential Debate threat is a little off topic.

Bill O'Reilly made an excellent point yesterday:

The problem for the people, is that nobody can know if removing Saddam at the expense of more than 1,000 American lives is worth it. That will only become apparent years down the road. Both Bush and Kerry have both pledged to stay the course in Iraq, but it is impossible to form a definite conclusion on how history will play this out.

It proves that the amount of Bush hating is obsurd. We do not know yet if the Iraq war was worth it. That ties in with what I've been saying.

The anti-Bush crowd are truly the ones who are causing America's problems. They hate Bush. They truly hate him. Anyone to that point doesn't deserve to be called an American. That is the group that is misleading America. Not Bush, not Kerry, but the anti-Bush crowd. They are causing Americans to be divided so insanely during this war on terror--exactly what Osama bin Laden and Al Quaida want. The simple truth is that the Bush haters are the morons of America. I don't mean the people who are voting for Kerry, I mean the ones who hate Bush.

The problem with this situation is that many of the Bush haters are in the media. They are misleading Americans. The shear stupidity of Americans converted to fake American Bush-hating trash amazes me.

And what's dumb about the way people decide if they're for or against the war is that people make the decision based on whether they liked Bush or not before 9/11. After 9/11 Bush had an 88% approval rating at one point. He brought the people together after 9/11. The Bush-haters, some of who had probably been in favor of Bush after 9/11, went back to beign themselves when the Iraq war was imminent and started bashing Bush again.

That's the story of the Bush haters, but back to Iraq, which is really a simple question that has been blown out of proportions by the Bush-haters, Saddam Hussein was a threat to national security (even though we now know he had no WMD's) that was removed in one of the most non-costly wars in American history. Even Bush haters agree that Saddam had to go, they just say mostly that Bush either rushed to war without other nations like France or Germany or the war was not worth the American lives it cost. To the first argument, France and Germany very simply were not coming. The European countries ignored the threat of Hitler, and they were certainly not going to do anything about Saddam Hussein. Kerry is an idiot for thinking that France and Germany would have joined us if we'd have waited longer for more failed diplomacy. Those two countries have even specifically said that no matter the outcome of the November election, they will not go into Iraq, contrary to what Kerry has said many times to voters.

To the Anti-war argument that the war was not worth the American lives it costed: about half a million people were killed by Saddam's regime over his approximately thirty year rule. Divide it and you get a little more than 15,000 murders a year. That makes the 12,000 and growing civilian deaths and 1,000 and growing American deaths over a year and a half seem like a small number, because it is! Face it, thousands of lives were saved by the war if that rate of murders by Saddam's regime had been continued if we'd have not invaded. America has a duty in this world to help such countries as Iraq in times like that. No matter how many WMD's, no matter now many Bush haters there are, no matter how many other forein leaders disagree, no matter how many percentage points he has in the polls, Bush will do his duty as President of the US to remove threats to national security and save innocent lives.

But Kerry ... oh, no, Kerry does whatever gets him points in the polls here in America. Remember the 87 billion vote ... Kerry voted against it because of pressure from Howard Dean during the Democratic primary race.

The point of this election is clear: there is a record amount of hate towards Bush, but Bush is the candidate that will defeat the terrorists and bring this world to peace.

Bush haters do not wish the best for America, they wish to defeat President Bush, but they will not succeed.

The anti-Bush crowd are truly the ones who are causing America's problems. They hate Bush. They truly hate him. Anyone to that point doesn't deserve to be called an American. That is the group that is misleading America. Not Bush, not Kerry, but the anti-Bush crowd. They are causing Americans to be divided so insanely during this war on terror--exactly what Osama bin Laden and Al Quaida want. The simple truth is that the Bush haters are the morons of America. I don't mean the people who are voting for Kerry, I mean the ones who hate Bush.

That is so true..It is alright if people vote for Kerry, but they have made such a big deal out of it that it is spiliting America into two parts.. This hurts us more for two reasons:
1. American relations of people with different political fews of dropped
2. This has caused chaos, and would give terrorist another shot of making even more chaos

A little more to ad to this, George Washington warned at having political parties divide the country like this. According to what Smartweb says that is what the Bush Haters are doing.

I just thought of something. What would have Gore done with Iraq. Everyone is beating bush since he was in office, but Gore would he have lead the country better to this point? Maybe there is so many bush haters because Bush won without the popular vote and the war is a thing to bash the president.

I now see how hopeless this argument is. I cannot convince anyone here. I have one last thing to say, however, and that is that no matter how bad things get outside of this nation, dissention among the people is never a bad thing for America. America is a democratic nation, our national ideals center on the power of the individual.

"The anti-Bush crowd are truly the ones who are causing America's problems. They hate Bush. They truly hate him. Anyone to that point doesn't deserve to be called an American." - Smartweb

There is nothing more American than expressing my ideas. So, in conclusion, I do not disagree with what you say. But I will defend to the death your right to say it. America is not Bush nor is it Kerry, it is a democracy of the people.

It's been fun, guys. See you in November.

Surv, were are you going?!

No, you cannot convince anyone because your political beliefs are based in irrational hate that normal people do not understand.

Suvorov wrote:I now see how hopeless this argument is. I cannot convince anyone here. I have one last thing to say, however, and that is that no matter how bad things get outside of this nation, dissention among the people is never a bad thing for America. America is a democratic nation, our national ideals center on the power of the individual.

"The anti-Bush crowd are truly the ones who are causing America's problems. They hate Bush. They truly hate him. Anyone to that point doesn't deserve to be called an American." - Smartweb

There is nothing more American than expressing my ideas. So, in conclusion, I do not disagree with what you say. But I will defend to the death your right to say it. America is not Bush nor is it Kerry, it is a democracy of the people.

It's been fun, guys. See you in November.

Believe it or not, I agree 100% with Suvorov. It is our right to dissent, and we should be able to fully use our rights.

But who do you think is going to make a better impression on those undecided votes: the people who protest in the nude, vandalizing other peoples property, and being a general nuisance to the area, or those who demonstrate peacefully and with care for other people's property?

Fortunatly, the ones who cause the most problems are the Democrats, and so they are the ones who are losing votes. I say let them demonstrate! It just shows everyone's true values.

I don't know about elsewhere, but here in Maryland, if you have a Bush bumper sticker (or Ehrlich, during the governor race), and you showed up to a rally, it was almost guaranteed that your car would get keyed and scratched up. People with Democrat signs and bumper stickers didn't worry about. Thats because the Republicans are the ones who have more values, respect, and morals.

This topic, like all the political ones, are hard to comment on because everyone is divided, and even when people 'try' to find that happy medium, such as:

Tebow2000 wrote:It is alright if people vote for Kerry

Smartweb wrote:The anti-Bush crowd are truly the ones who are causing America's problems. They hate Bush. They truly hate him. Anyone to that point doesn't deserve to be called an American. That is the group that is misleading America. Not Bush, not Kerry, but the anti-Bush crowd. They are causing Americans to be divided so insanely during this war on terror--exactly what Osama bin Laden and Al Quaida want. The simple truth is that the Bush haters are the morons of America. I don't mean the people who are voting for Kerry, I mean the ones who hate Bush.

This neutral ground doesn't work... Bush fanatics are right wing nutjobs, who 'try' to convince people that Bush isn't bad, Kerry's not better... but there is always 'some group' that is horrible. Then, the left winggers are so drilled in their ways that they see themselves as the "American People's" martyrs, both of them are stupid really. (Not as i the people are stupid; moreover, the 'political party' idealisms and generalisms are.)

Now, this is not to say, there are not "Bush-Haters," this is more to say... these people aren't exclusively Democrats, not limited to the media 'in general,' and certainly don't make up the popular vote that was back in 2000, they are the sam type of people (of course it was a different crowd) who hated Clinton, Regan, Kennedy (yeah, those were fanatical Republicans), and many other presidents... whther they were loved and adored by most or if they did nothing... Carter... for this country.

Someone paraphrased Washington's statment that political parties are not what the country needs, George Washington was a political genious to say such profound words that, really in my opinion, echo true today. Of course, this is why I'm one of those few Independents you hear about, not that I would vote Independent, it's more like, I would never find myself affiliated with a specific political party... for example, on election you could have a good candidate, such as Kennedy and then down the line you have someone else like Gore, what a comparison, eh?

From my 'Democratic' view I wish that one of the other Democrats would have received the nomination of the national party, like Gen. Clark or someone like that, but Kerry/Edwards leaves a bad taste in my mouth... as a southerner, especially Edwards... he gets under my skin with his accent and pretty boy-ness... Kerry... I don't know, guess the media warped my image of him to an extent, but his wife isn't from this country, he's kind of sponged off of her (not to say Bush hasn't sponged off of his Dad; different topic, different time though), and he's a little fruity for the whole Botox thing... if you can't tell, this whole "metro-sexual" craze also annoys the hell out of me. Anyways, back on topic.... Suvorov said something that is true:

Suvorov wrote: But I will defend to the death your right to say it. America is not Bush nor is it Kerry, it is a democracy of the people.

We are free, we have free speech, we are not 'a political party,' nor are we a 'mass,' we are individuals, we are Americans.... we are the proud and the great, but we don't need an egotistical attitude about it either, we need to remember that we have a lot to be thankful and proud of and we need to take care of ourselves before circling the globe to save everyone else. We need to be thankful for the military and those who fight and die for us, our rights, and our ability to write our opinions, as we want, here without censorship to any degree except by the owners... and that is part of our capitalist free enterprise. I tip my hat, America, we're in for a doozy of an election.

The problem: lots of people are getting highly unfavorable and in many cases hateful views of Bush because the media has distorted the news especially concerning Iraq.

The truth: it is vital that Bush be reelected because he is the only candidate in this election who will fight to end terrorism. Kerry will do whatever American politics makes him, but Bush will do what is best for this country, be it popular here in America or not.

The solution: extremists of both sides have to calm down and try to look at the world from a fair and balanced point of view. There is no reason to hate either Bush or Kerry, or any presidential candidate.

The reason to carry out the solution: a divided America is what the terrorists want, and to fight an effective war on terror, we have to be united.

Bush's problems: 1) He did not do as good job in unifying the country as he could have. 2) He needs to control his facial expressions and improve his English.

If you view Bush as one of the worst presidents in modern history, your opinion is invalid. If you view Bush as the best president in our history, your opinion is invalid. Bush is the best president we've had since Reagan, and thank God that Gore was not elected in 2000.

I found this here.

A mass grave in northern Iraq has been found to contain the remains of toddlers clutching toys.

European forensic investigators are refusing to take part in the excavations.

BBC wrote: Mr Kehoe said that work to uncover graves around Iraq, where about 300,000 people are thought to have been killed during Saddam Hussein’s regime, was slow as experienced European investigators were not taking part.

The Europeans, he said, were staying away as the evidence might be used eventually to put Saddam Hussein to death.